On 21st July 2025, the BBC’s ScrumV podcast included the excellent Lauren Jenkins’ interview with Abi Tierney. You can listen to the full podcast by following the link to the BBC Sounds Website below:
BBC ScrumV Podcast
When asked about what had changed since the WRU had sufficient funding allowing the four teams to be completive, AT replied:
“Well, I think the main thing that’s changed is Cardiff happened, and I think that showed just how challenging the system is. And I think that made us all pause, including the regions and a result of Cardiff going into administration meant that we weren’t able to give assurance sufficiently to two of the regions to sign the PRA. So when you don’t have a deal based on the four regional clubs going forward, then it’s time to think about what to do differently.
- The WRU were fully aware of the situation for some time before Cardiff Rugby went into administration. Surely the WRU were well aware of the financial impact of taking ownership of Cardiff Rugby when the new PRA offering fair funding was still on the table.
- It seems the Ospreys and Scarlets request for assurances of fair funding were fully justified as was their decision to not sign the revised PRA without that assurance from the WRU. How could the Ospreys and Scarlets demonstrate due diligence without sufficient assurances from the WRU?
- As a multi-million pound organisation, where was the contingency for inflation? The financial climate in general is turbulent, so why wasn’t this part of forecasting?
- Why couldn’t the required assurances be given by the WRU?
- Why has it taken until now for this to be made public by the WRU?
- Where has the clarity been for supporters?
When LJ asked about the seismic changes Abi referred to in previous statements, AT replied:
I think we’ve seen a drop in a number of areas. When we modelled the original offer, it was June-July 2024 that we put the first offer on the table and you do it based on your best – you know your current numbers at that point. We’ve seen numbers go the wrong way at that is one of the things I reflect on – I talked to Malcolm Wall as the chair of PRB – we should have done a tougher downside case and I think some of the headwinds that have hit since weren’t necessarily fully reflected in that downside case, particularly competition income, media rights have continued, not just for us, but globally in rugby. It has made the requirements, particularly for the clubs, harder because they’ve got to close those gaps.
Costs have gone up as well. That’s something we’ve talked about – you’ve had National Insurance, inflation going up, player wages going up. You’ve also had costs of just running the stadium, …so you’ve got revenues going down and then costs going up.
- NI increases for businesses were announced in October 2024 and as a multi-million pound organisation, where was the contingency for inflation? The financial climate in general is turbulent, so why wasn’t this part of forecasting?
- Debenture invites for Autumn Internationals went out in April 2024 & given Wales had just had their first wooden spoon in twenty-one years and there were two Sunday AIs, was this impact on revenue taken into account?
- Let alone reflecting on the downside case not being tough, if there’s any creditable due diligence around this process, why haven’t forecasts been updated in the last ten to eleven months since the initial cases were built?
LJ expressed that fans had criticised the WRU for the number of U turns, and asked when the WRU were aware that they may not have the money to fund four teams, AT response was:
It’s not that we don’t, we could still fund the four teams …… the gap is more in the costs and the revenue to those four teams in terms of external forces rather than our funding. So I think I’ve been really clear on that. It’s not that we can’t afford to fund the four teams. I think when you when you go through things such as the Six Nations performance that we had. The July offer that went on the table, we then had more losses in the Autumn Nation series and the Six Nations and you start to dig deeper about what’s broken in the pathways and in other areas and the academies…..you realise that not only do you need to invest more in the four teams, you also need to invest in every level and increase that investments, whether that’s in Super Rugby Cymru , whether that’s also in the women’s game and it’s only so far that you can put that money you’ve mentioned that everything’s on the table.
- It’s only by digging deeper that there’s a realisation at the WRU that more investment is needed at every level? Surely that has been apparent for some time.
- The WRU were committed to the continuation of four sides as recently as the JSG meeting on 30th April. A significant number of the performance issues outlined were very much apparent throughout the negotiation process. If Cardiff’s collapse and the need to address this wasn’t the key driver, then why did the WRU not consider this sooner? Was there sufficient modelling and robust scenario planning to support the decision-making process?
When asked about the formal consultation process and a decision on the number of professional teams, AT replied:
We are going out to formally consult in the middle of August and there’ll be a full consultation pack formally consulting as a national governing body. We have to do this with the four clubs plus the players and then there’ll also be wider engagement with stakeholders, with fans and everybody else during that period that will take through to the end of September and then we’ll be taking a decision to the board in October.
- We fully support the consultation process extending to all stakeholders. To many supporters the of professional teams, the perception is that the WRU want to communicate their message and do not want to listen to supporters’ views. Supporters were not mentioned in the official announcement from the WRU of what seems like rushed consultation timescales, despite the WRU’s commitment to work more closely with supporters as stated in the last WRU-JSG meeting.
- To ensure a fair consultation process, is this enough time to communicate with supporters, gain feedback and incorporate as part of final recommendation? The timescale seems tight for a thorough and fair, consultation.
When asked if AT would like to see the Ospreys and Scarlets merge, AT replied:
I think everything is on the table, so I don’t yet have [a] preferred direction of travel. I think it’s up to the clubs when they see what we put in the consultation – we will say “this is the direction of travel in terms of number of clubs” and then I think the conversation start in earnest with the clubs at that point to see whether there’s ways that we can make that work for their owners and their fans.
- It feels like a lack of leadership to hear that the WRU’s CEO hasn’t a preferred direction of travel yet.
- The prolonged uncertainty does nothing to improve the financial outlook. What is the process? What is the direction of travel? Where is the strategic leadership?
- If reducing the number of clubs is the direction chosen, what is the criteria that they will be using in order to ensure a fair and equitable selection policy? Is there any consideration to the structures which underpin the professional tier of rugby in Wales? This should be a whole-system approach. If that work was done to arrive at the original agreement, how do the WRU expect to replicate that to a sufficient and acceptable level in this timeframe?
- Our concerns are that Welsh rugby at all levels may not recover from the loss of support if the number of professional teams reduce.
LJ asked AT if she was worried about legal action from the teams as each club wanted to exist.
I think that is always a concern….. You can see the things that get played out in the media. I genuinely would say they’re all still talking to me about what’s in the best interest of Welsh rugby and want to find a way forward. I remain ever the optimist that we will find a way through it and I hope we can avoid legal action because that’s the worst thing that can happen for Welsh rugby, because that will delay it and there’ll also be lots of costs involved. Now we’ve all said ….we need to do something different, one of the messages I’m hearing from the clubs and the players is actually we need to do it quickly. To remove the uncertainty.
- The threat of legal action should be a real concern to the WRU – the time and money that would be lost will surely stop any plans to remove the uncertainty that is surrounding and clouding Welsh rugby on a daily frequency.
LJ asked if AT believed that two teams could lead to success and if AT was still confident that Wales could be in be in the top five in the world by 2028:
The analysis that we’ll put in the consultation [shows] there’s trade-offs in all the different models. One of the options is to keep four but fund them differently. Another option is to go to three and or you could fund them differently again, you could have a three on equal funding or two plus one…. I think [the options have] trade-offs. I think from the performance level you can make two [teams] work, but we’ve got to be able to demonstrate that. But then there’s trade-offs and you know you can make it work from three. I think getting more cohesion is going to be the really important thing,
I think it was always an aspirational goal, but that’s where we’re aiming to get to. I think it’s become harder since we published that [goal] last July, but it doesn’t mean that we’re taking our eye off it or giving up on it.
- There is no evidence that two professional teams can make a consistent top five ranking international team. If Wales achieve a top five ranking by 2028 with less than four first class clubs, they would be the first international team to do so since Scotland in 2023 (Scotland peaked at 5th in 2018 and again in 2023).
- There doesn’t look like there will be any resolution to the maelstrom created by WRU in the near future (before any proposal is FIRST shared with the WRU board in October) and the negative impact of the continued uncertainty on the Welsh game at every level cannot be understated. AT mentions cohesion, but the way that this is unfolding doesn’t demonstrate the WRU’s commitment to that, in fact, this has been very divisive.
- As Ospreys supporters, we continue to back our club and our players and want to be here long into the future and celebrating genuine successes at both club and international level – a strong international team can only be built on wide and solid foundations.
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